It’s been decades, why doesn’t getaddrinfo have a standardised way to specify a timeout? Set a timeout to 10 seconds and life becomes a lot easier.
Yes I know in Linux you can set the timeout in a config file.
But really the dns setting should be configurable by the calling code. Some code requires fast lookups and doesn’t mind failing which, while others won’t mind waiting longer. It’s not a one size fits all thing.
The first is that getaddrinfo is specified by POSIX, and the POSIX evolve very conservatively and at a glacial pace.
The second reason is that specifying a timeout breaks symmetry with a lot of other functions in Unix/C, both system calls and libc calls. For example, you can't specify a timeout when opening a file, reading from a file, or closing a file, which are all potentially blocking operations. There are ways to do these things in a non-blocking manner with timeouts using aio or io_uring, but those are already relatively complicated APIs for just using simple system calls, and getaddrinfo is much more complicated.
The last reason is that if you use the sockets APIs directly it's not that hard to write a non-blocking DNS resolver (c-ares is one example). The thing is though that if you write your own resolver you have to consider how to do caching, it won't work with NSS on Linux, etc. You can implement these things (systemd-resolved does it, and works with NSS) but they are a lot of work to do properly.
Just leave DNS out, are there any POSIX standard async functionality for networking or even normal IO? All I know by reading some libraries is epoll or io_uring used on Linux, kevent on BSDs.
I disagree, there are too many variables and ultimately the end user would be th one that knows best. The proper solution isn’t having the library or application dev, who has no idea what kind of network connection the user is running, the type of dns server (caching or not, lan or remote, etc) or the name servers of the target domain and their performance or availability. This is all really the domain of the sysadmin.
The solution is to make it a properly non-blocking api.
Netscape used to start a new thread (or maybe it was a subprocess?) to handle DNS lookups, because the API at the time (gethostbyname) was blocking. It's kind of amazing that we're 30 years on and this is still a problem.
getaddrinfo_a is available, but not widely adopted (*BSD and Linux), probably because you can't guarantee it'll be available on every computer/phone/modem. This is only an issue if you're targeting POSIX rather than modern operating systems.
Windows 8 and above also have their own asynchronous DNS API on NON-POSIX land.
>getaddrinfo_a is available, but not widely adopted (*BSD and Linux), probably because you can't guarantee it'll be available on every computer/phone/modem. This is only an issue if you're targeting POSIX rather than modern operating systems.
To be precise, even on Linux getaddrinfo_a is not guaranteed to be present. It's a glibc extension. musl doesn't have it.
GetAddrInfoEx[0] has async support support since Windows 8 - it had the overlapped parameters earlier but didn't support them. I'm guessing that is what GP is referring to.
The system-provided API for getting DNS user/system preferences on Unix systems is to read /etc/resolv.conf. Every application is free to implement their own lookup from that.
In this case it isn't in the kernel, but in glibc. Could someone implement an equivalent alternative? Do any language runtimes re-implement DNS resolution?
The asynchronous cancellation in particular is difficult to use correctly, but is also one of the most useful aspects of the api in situations where appropriate.
Imagine cpu-bound worker threads that do nothing but consume work via condition variables and spend long periods of time in hot compute-only loops working on said work... Instead of adding a conditional in the compute you're probably not interested in slowing down at all, you turn on async cancellation and pthread_cancel() the workers when you need to interrupt what's going on.
But it's worth noting pthread_cancel() is also rarely supported anywhere outside first-class pthreads-capable systems like modern linux. So if you have any intention of running elsewhere, forget about it. Thread cancellation support in general is actually somewhat rare IME.
> But it's worth noting pthread_cancel() is also rarely supported anywhere outside first-class pthreads-capable systems like modern linux
Having written some of the implementation for a non x86 commercial Unix well over 30 years ago now (yeah, I know), pthread_cancel is not that rare. A carve out like “modern linux” is io_uring or even inotify and epoll. AIX and HP-UX, fuck even OSF/1 had pthread_cancel.
Windows has TerminateThread. Most RTOS have some kind of thread level task killing interface.
While they have different semantics than pthread_cancel, that doesn’t really affect the example you’re giving - they can all be used for the “cpu-bound worker”
A standalone library would have to work with all the existing system facilities (e.g. NSS on Linux systems) to be not restricted to just resolv.conf entries, but to allow for all the various other methods of resolving names.
pthread_cancel is not a good design because it operates entirely separately from normal mechanisms of error handling and unwinding. (That is, if you’re using C. If you’re using C++ it can integrate with exception handling.)
A better approach would have been to mimic how kernels internally handle signals received during syscalls. Receiving a signal is supposed to cancel the syscall. But from the kernel’s perspective, a syscall implementation is just some code. It can call other functions, acquire locks, wait for conditions, and do anything else you would expect code to do. All of that needs to be cleanly cancelled and unwound to avoid breaking the rest of the system.
So it works like this: when a signal is sent to a thread, a persistent “interrupted” flag is set for that thread. Like with pthread_cancel, this doesn’t immediately interrupt the thread, but only has an effect once the thread calls one of a specific set of functions. For pthread_cancel, that set consists of a bunch of syscalls and other “cancellation points”. For kernel-internal code, it consists of most functions that wait for a condition. The difference is in what happens afterwards. In pthread_cancel’s case, the thread is immediately aborted with only designated cleanups running. In the kernel, the condition-waiting function simply returns an error code. The caller is expected to handle this like any other error code, i.e. by performing any necessary cleanup and then returning the same error code itself. This continues until the entire chain of calls has been unwound. Classic C manual error handling. It’s nothing special, but because interruption works the same way as regular error handling, it‘s more likely to “just work”. Once everything is unwound, the “interrupted” flag is cleared and the original signal can be handled.
(The error code for interruption is usually EINTR, but don’t confuse this with EINTR handling in userspace, which is a mess. The difference is because userspace generally doesn’t want to abort operations upon receiving EINTR, and because from userspace’s perspective there’s no persistent flag.)
pthread_cancel could have been designed the same way: cancellation points return an error code rather than forcibly unwinding. Admittedly, this system might not work quite as well in userspace as it does in kernels. Kernel code already needs to be scrupulous about proper error handling, whereas userspace code often just aborts if a syscall fails. Still, the system would work fine for well-written userspace code, which is more than can be said for pthread_cancel.
Maybe this is naive, but could there just be some amount of worker threads that run forever, wait for and take jobs when needed, and message when the jobs are done? Don't need to be canceled, don't block
If the DNS resolution call blocks the thread, then you need N worker threads to perform N DNS calls. Threads aren’t free, so this is suboptimal. OTOH some thread pools e.g. libdispatch on Apple operating systems will spawn new threads on demand to prevent starvation, so this _can_ be viable. Though of course this can lead to thread explosion which may be even more problematic depending on the use case. In libcurl’s situation, spawning a million threads is probably even worse than a memory leak, which is worse than long timeouts.
In general, what you really want is for the API call to be nonblocking so you’re not forced to burn a thread.
This is, essentially, what the previous (largely pathetic) excuse for true asynchronous I/O on Linux did with the libc aio(7) interface to essentially fake support for truly asynchronous file IO. It wasn’t great.
> Then it needs to sort them if there is more than one address. And in order to do that it needs to read /etc/gai.conf
I don’t see why glibc would have to do that inside a call to getaddrinfo. can’t it do that once at library initialization? If it has to react to changes to that file while a process is running, couldn’t it have a separate thread for polling that file for changes, or use inotify for a separate thread to be called when it changes? Swapping in the new config atomically might be problematic, but I would think that is solvable.
Even ignoring the issue mentioned it seems wasteful to open, parse, and close that file repeatedly.
> I don’t see why glibc would have to do that inside a call to getaddrinfo. can’t it do that once at library initialization?
If it were a library dedicated to DNS, sure, but glibc is used by nearly every process in the system, including many which will never call getaddrinfo.
I think the libc people might argue this level of functionality is just outside the scope of libc. (Arguably, it is a mistake for DNS to be part of libc, given how complicated it is.)
Why is running the DNS resolution thread a problem? It should be dequeuing resolution requests and pushing responses and sleeping when there is nothing to do
When someone kills off the curl context surely you simply set a suicide flag on the thread and wake it up so it can be joined.
The thread started sounds like it's single use, not a thread handling requests in a loop. Anyway, a single thread handling requests in a loop would serialize these DNS lookups which if they're hanging would be problematic.
One problem may be that fork() kills background threads, so now any program that uses libcurl + fork has to have a new API to restart the DNS thread (or use posix_atfork which is a big PITA), and that might break existing programs using curl.
It’s not too much of an exaggeration to say that everything about using fork() instead of vfork() plus exec() is essentially fundamentally broken in modern osdev without a whole stack of hacks to try and patch individual issues one-by-one.
Sometimes. To give one counterexample, golang doesn't have a way to restart the threads it uses for I/O (apparently a decision the golang developers made), so if you're embedding golang code in another binary, it better not call fork. (The reason for this warning: https://gitlab.com/nbdkit/nbdkit/-/commit/2589e6da40939af9ae...)
There might be a way to getaddrinfo asynchronously with io_uring by now. Otherwise just call the synchronous version in another thread and let it time out so the thread exits normally, right? Why bother with pthread_cancel?
The problem is that the standard library function is specified to be blocking (and it's in userspace, so io_uring is not relevant). It's quite possible to do a non-blocking DNS lookup but you have to use a separate non-standard library (like c-ares).
No. Getaddrinfo is libc, not the kernel. It is of course possible, but complicated, to implement dns resolution with io_uring, but making it behave the same as glibc is very much a nontrivial piece of work.
Why can't they help fix the C library in question? Cancelation is really tricky to implement for the C library author. It's one of those concepts that, like fork, has implications that pervade everything. Please give your C library maintainers a little leeway if they get cancelation wrong. Especially if it's just a memory leak.
It’s been decades, why doesn’t getaddrinfo have a standardised way to specify a timeout? Set a timeout to 10 seconds and life becomes a lot easier.
Yes I know in Linux you can set the timeout in a config file.
But really the dns setting should be configurable by the calling code. Some code requires fast lookups and doesn’t mind failing which, while others won’t mind waiting longer. It’s not a one size fits all thing.
A few reasons, I think.
The first is that getaddrinfo is specified by POSIX, and the POSIX evolve very conservatively and at a glacial pace.
The second reason is that specifying a timeout breaks symmetry with a lot of other functions in Unix/C, both system calls and libc calls. For example, you can't specify a timeout when opening a file, reading from a file, or closing a file, which are all potentially blocking operations. There are ways to do these things in a non-blocking manner with timeouts using aio or io_uring, but those are already relatively complicated APIs for just using simple system calls, and getaddrinfo is much more complicated.
The last reason is that if you use the sockets APIs directly it's not that hard to write a non-blocking DNS resolver (c-ares is one example). The thing is though that if you write your own resolver you have to consider how to do caching, it won't work with NSS on Linux, etc. You can implement these things (systemd-resolved does it, and works with NSS) but they are a lot of work to do properly.
On Linux you can do what you're asking with `getaddrinfo_a` + `gai_suspend`.
As always, on non-Linux Unixen the answer is "screw you!"
Just wanted to note that Windows doesn't have that problem either. Even Windows NT had async getaddrinfo() variants.
Just leave DNS out, are there any POSIX standard async functionality for networking or even normal IO? All I know by reading some libraries is epoll or io_uring used on Linux, kevent on BSDs.
I disagree, there are too many variables and ultimately the end user would be th one that knows best. The proper solution isn’t having the library or application dev, who has no idea what kind of network connection the user is running, the type of dns server (caching or not, lan or remote, etc) or the name servers of the target domain and their performance or availability. This is all really the domain of the sysadmin.
The solution is to make it a properly non-blocking api.
Netscape used to start a new thread (or maybe it was a subprocess?) to handle DNS lookups, because the API at the time (gethostbyname) was blocking. It's kind of amazing that we're 30 years on and this is still a problem.
getaddrinfo_a is available, but not widely adopted (*BSD and Linux), probably because you can't guarantee it'll be available on every computer/phone/modem. This is only an issue if you're targeting POSIX rather than modern operating systems.
Windows 8 and above also have their own asynchronous DNS API on NON-POSIX land.
>getaddrinfo_a is available, but not widely adopted (*BSD and Linux), probably because you can't guarantee it'll be available on every computer/phone/modem. This is only an issue if you're targeting POSIX rather than modern operating systems.
To be precise, even on Linux getaddrinfo_a is not guaranteed to be present. It's a glibc extension. musl doesn't have it.
>Windows 8 and above also have their own asynchronous DNS API on NON-POSIX land. Interesting. Which API?
GetAddrInfoEx[0] has async support support since Windows 8 - it had the overlapped parameters earlier but didn't support them. I'm guessing that is what GP is referring to.
[0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ws2tcpip...
If you want DNS resolution to obey user/system preferences then you need to use the system provided API
For sure! The only problem is there should be a non-blocking system-provided API and there isn't.
System provided is maybe a strange word to use here since getaddrinfo is a libc function, not a system call.
POSIX as the system, of course.
The system-provided API for getting DNS user/system preferences on Unix systems is to read /etc/resolv.conf. Every application is free to implement their own lookup from that.
That is absolutely not the API on macOS, which is a certified UNIX.
In this case it isn't in the kernel, but in glibc. Could someone implement an equivalent alternative? Do any language runtimes re-implement DNS resolution?
I think most languages use the OS api by default, but there are plenty of libraries out there that bypass the system resolution.
Go does. And it supports timeouts and cancelation.
As long as broken APIs exist, they will be problematic... they really should be deprecated.
Calling a separate (non-cancellable) thread to perform the lookup sounds a like viable solution...
At first I wondered if musl does it better, so I checked, and the version I have disables cancellation in the guts of `getaddrinfo`.
I've always thought APIs like `pthread_cancel` are too nasty to use. Glad to see well documented evidence of my crank opinion
The asynchronous cancellation in particular is difficult to use correctly, but is also one of the most useful aspects of the api in situations where appropriate.
Imagine cpu-bound worker threads that do nothing but consume work via condition variables and spend long periods of time in hot compute-only loops working on said work... Instead of adding a conditional in the compute you're probably not interested in slowing down at all, you turn on async cancellation and pthread_cancel() the workers when you need to interrupt what's going on.
But it's worth noting pthread_cancel() is also rarely supported anywhere outside first-class pthreads-capable systems like modern linux. So if you have any intention of running elsewhere, forget about it. Thread cancellation support in general is actually somewhat rare IME.
> But it's worth noting pthread_cancel() is also rarely supported anywhere outside first-class pthreads-capable systems like modern linux
Having written some of the implementation for a non x86 commercial Unix well over 30 years ago now (yeah, I know), pthread_cancel is not that rare. A carve out like “modern linux” is io_uring or even inotify and epoll. AIX and HP-UX, fuck even OSF/1 had pthread_cancel.
Windows has TerminateThread. Most RTOS have some kind of thread level task killing interface.
While they have different semantics than pthread_cancel, that doesn’t really affect the example you’re giving - they can all be used for the “cpu-bound worker”
pthreads has `pthread_kill`, which is like `TerminateThread`.
`pthread_cancel` is different
Why not use getaddrinfo_a / getaddrinfo_async_start / GetAddrInfoExW?
Or just use some standalone DNS resolve code or library (which basically replicates getaddrinfo but supports this in an async way)?
See also here the discussion: https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/issues/13619
A standalone library would have to work with all the existing system facilities (e.g. NSS on Linux systems) to be not restricted to just resolv.conf entries, but to allow for all the various other methods of resolving names.
libcurl's c-ares support would fit the bill?
pthread_cancel is not a good design because it operates entirely separately from normal mechanisms of error handling and unwinding. (That is, if you’re using C. If you’re using C++ it can integrate with exception handling.)
A better approach would have been to mimic how kernels internally handle signals received during syscalls. Receiving a signal is supposed to cancel the syscall. But from the kernel’s perspective, a syscall implementation is just some code. It can call other functions, acquire locks, wait for conditions, and do anything else you would expect code to do. All of that needs to be cleanly cancelled and unwound to avoid breaking the rest of the system.
So it works like this: when a signal is sent to a thread, a persistent “interrupted” flag is set for that thread. Like with pthread_cancel, this doesn’t immediately interrupt the thread, but only has an effect once the thread calls one of a specific set of functions. For pthread_cancel, that set consists of a bunch of syscalls and other “cancellation points”. For kernel-internal code, it consists of most functions that wait for a condition. The difference is in what happens afterwards. In pthread_cancel’s case, the thread is immediately aborted with only designated cleanups running. In the kernel, the condition-waiting function simply returns an error code. The caller is expected to handle this like any other error code, i.e. by performing any necessary cleanup and then returning the same error code itself. This continues until the entire chain of calls has been unwound. Classic C manual error handling. It’s nothing special, but because interruption works the same way as regular error handling, it‘s more likely to “just work”. Once everything is unwound, the “interrupted” flag is cleared and the original signal can be handled.
(The error code for interruption is usually EINTR, but don’t confuse this with EINTR handling in userspace, which is a mess. The difference is because userspace generally doesn’t want to abort operations upon receiving EINTR, and because from userspace’s perspective there’s no persistent flag.)
pthread_cancel could have been designed the same way: cancellation points return an error code rather than forcibly unwinding. Admittedly, this system might not work quite as well in userspace as it does in kernels. Kernel code already needs to be scrupulous about proper error handling, whereas userspace code often just aborts if a syscall fails. Still, the system would work fine for well-written userspace code, which is more than can be said for pthread_cancel.
Maybe this is naive, but could there just be some amount of worker threads that run forever, wait for and take jobs when needed, and message when the jobs are done? Don't need to be canceled, don't block
If the DNS resolution call blocks the thread, then you need N worker threads to perform N DNS calls. Threads aren’t free, so this is suboptimal. OTOH some thread pools e.g. libdispatch on Apple operating systems will spawn new threads on demand to prevent starvation, so this _can_ be viable. Though of course this can lead to thread explosion which may be even more problematic depending on the use case. In libcurl’s situation, spawning a million threads is probably even worse than a memory leak, which is worse than long timeouts.
In general, what you really want is for the API call to be nonblocking so you’re not forced to burn a thread.
This is, essentially, what the previous (largely pathetic) excuse for true asynchronous I/O on Linux did with the libc aio(7) interface to essentially fake support for truly asynchronous file IO. It wasn’t great.
> Then it needs to sort them if there is more than one address. And in order to do that it needs to read /etc/gai.conf
I don’t see why glibc would have to do that inside a call to getaddrinfo. can’t it do that once at library initialization? If it has to react to changes to that file while a process is running, couldn’t it have a separate thread for polling that file for changes, or use inotify for a separate thread to be called when it changes? Swapping in the new config atomically might be problematic, but I would think that is solvable.
Even ignoring the issue mentioned it seems wasteful to open, parse, and close that file repeatedly.
> I don’t see why glibc would have to do that inside a call to getaddrinfo. can’t it do that once at library initialization?
If it were a library dedicated to DNS, sure, but glibc is used by nearly every process in the system, including many which will never call getaddrinfo.
I think the libc people might argue this level of functionality is just outside the scope of libc. (Arguably, it is a mistake for DNS to be part of libc, given how complicated it is.)
To be sure, complexity isn’t the determinator for whether something is or isn’t in scope for libc though.
You want libc to start a thread whenever it is loaded?
Why is running the DNS resolution thread a problem? It should be dequeuing resolution requests and pushing responses and sleeping when there is nothing to do
When someone kills off the curl context surely you simply set a suicide flag on the thread and wake it up so it can be joined.
The thread started sounds like it's single use, not a thread handling requests in a loop. Anyway, a single thread handling requests in a loop would serialize these DNS lookups which if they're hanging would be problematic.
Yes, but why? As GP notes, the thread doesn't have to be single-use.
One problem may be that fork() kills background threads, so now any program that uses libcurl + fork has to have a new API to restart the DNS thread (or use posix_atfork which is a big PITA), and that might break existing programs using curl.
It’s not too much of an exaggeration to say that everything about using fork() instead of vfork() plus exec() is essentially fundamentally broken in modern osdev without a whole stack of hacks to try and patch individual issues one-by-one.
A surmountable problem, sure.
Sometimes. To give one counterexample, golang doesn't have a way to restart the threads it uses for I/O (apparently a decision the golang developers made), so if you're embedding golang code in another binary, it better not call fork. (The reason for this warning: https://gitlab.com/nbdkit/nbdkit/-/commit/2589e6da40939af9ae...)
[deleted]
https://c-ares.org/
There might be a way to getaddrinfo asynchronously with io_uring by now. Otherwise just call the synchronous version in another thread and let it time out so the thread exits normally, right? Why bother with pthread_cancel?
The problem is that the standard library function is specified to be blocking (and it's in userspace, so io_uring is not relevant). It's quite possible to do a non-blocking DNS lookup but you have to use a separate non-standard library (like c-ares).
No. Getaddrinfo is libc, not the kernel. It is of course possible, but complicated, to implement dns resolution with io_uring, but making it behave the same as glibc is very much a nontrivial piece of work.
io_uring is for calling kernel APIs; this is a userspace API.
io_uring is a linux-ism, curl is cross-platform.
Why can't they help fix the C library in question? Cancelation is really tricky to implement for the C library author. It's one of those concepts that, like fork, has implications that pervade everything. Please give your C library maintainers a little leeway if they get cancelation wrong. Especially if it's just a memory leak.
I'm betting this code is so old and its behavior so ingrained everywhere else that nobody dares touching it.